Author Topic: A theory of fighting games  (Read 5259 times)

Yawackhary

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A theory of fighting games
« on: March 11, 2011, 08:33:00 AM »
While the likes of Famicom pirated fighters are pretty well known, the Mega Drive pirates seems to be unknown. Please note that this is a theory and might not be accurate due to lack of credits in nearly all games and release dates on some games. Also a few games are missing like the King of Fighters series, Samurai Spirits 2, Power Rangers: Fighting Edition and Dragonball Z: Final Bout due to have not played them yet.

First off look at Tekken 3 Special, presumably the first pirated Mega Drive fighting game not only because of the date of the original game (1996) but because it seems more primitive compared to the games yet to come.

The backgrounds are 1 layered and look like that they are vertically mirrored. It has the control scheme that the later games use (A to block, B to punch and C to kick) but it is very hard to pull off the special moves.

Now going into Soul Blade Super, the SNES version is credited at 1997 however that version only has 6 fighters while the Mega Drive one has 9 (Voldo is missing but his stage is there) which meant that either the SNES one was done while the Mega Drive version is in development or cartridge space made the SNES one smaller. Due to that it uses the American/European name of the Playstation port of the arcade game instead of Soul Edge, it must have obviously been released after January 1997 (May if they got the PAL version) but probably before 1998.

It seems to be more advanced than Tekken 3 Special due to the fact that the backgrounds are on 2 layers compared to just one layer in Tekken 3 Special. Also more effort was done in the sprites (with only Li Long having a different style to everyone else) and even has music converted from the game. The link between this and Tekken 3 Special is that the main menu is in the same style, the game switches resolution between 320x224 (character select) and 256x224 (in game), the character select.

Sort of inrelevant but Pocket Monster has leftovers of Soul Blade Super in the ROM meaning that not only Pocket Monster was made after Soul Blade Super but also by the same company.

Next up is V.R. Fighter vs. Taken 2 aka Virtua Fighter vs. Tekken 2. It has 2 layered backgrounds, animated sprites even touches such as flying birds well as a different character select. As for the date, the current ROM dump dates this to 24th December 1996 however I have a hunch that the game was made a little later due to the fact that there are slight improvements such as slightly easier to pull the special moves, using the MD resolution (320x224) unlike the other games and the animated sprites.

However the main issue is that the sprite style is inconsistant between the characters but it uses different sprites for the Tekken characters compared to Tekken 3 Special. An interesting fact is that it uses the same font as the AV Artisan games such as Funny World, Balloon Boy and the Earth Defend.

It might even be possible that this was developed by a different company but it has the same issues as the previous games plus the same control method. So this is very hard to categorise whether it was made before or after Soul Blade Super (or even before Tekken 3 Special). However a discovery is that the ROM header is an altered one of what appeared in Super Donkey Kong 99, Adventurous Boy and Squirrel King. Since the last two were made by Gamtec, could they have been involved in some way?

http://npshare.de/files/a5f87364/pirromheader.png

The final one is Top Fighter 2000. Presumably made in 2000, it is more advanced than the previous games due to animated sprites in the backgrounds, the screen is locked (instead of looping like Tekken 3 Special, V.R. Fighter vs. Taken 2 and Soul Blade Super) and the fact that the characters looked like they were either emulator ripped or took a long time to clean up the sprites (from King of Fighters, a Dragon Ball Z game and either X-Men vs. Street Fighter or Marvel vs. Capcom). Also the controls are slightly tweaked making special moves easier to pull off. The character select while only having 1 row has a palette option by pressing up or down. Another difference is that the A button doesn't just block anymore, you have to press the the other direction has well to block attacks. E.g. you are facing right, press A and left on the D-Pad to block.

I'm not sure whether it is done by the same company or a different company but I make a mention of Chinese Fighter. First off it uses a more friendly engine than the previous games as in that it is easier to make the special moves. The menu and character select are different than the previous games, it uses the 320x224 resolution. However it only has 1 layer for the background meaning that it could be either an artistic design or a test for the programmers. It actually is the best playing pirate (original game? even though it uses sprites from Warriors of Fate) due to that it just works, the difficulty option works as you can tell the difference and it is quite enjoyable to play (better than some official fighters such as Street Smart, Time Killers, Rise of the Robots). It was hacked as Lord of the Rings by Glorysun though.

The connection between all these games though is that they use the same or a similar font. (Hercules 2, Pocket Monster 1 & 2 and Pokemon Stadium included for another theory)

http://npshare.de/files/b47b615b/unknownmdtextlink.png

As for the engine that they used in these pirated games, it was either a stolen engine or one made from scratch. If the engine was stolen, which games would they be? Well I can think of one game that fits like a glove. That is Mighty Morphin Power Rangers on the Mega Drive, first is that the background loops like Tekken 3 Special, V.R. Fighter vs. Taken 2 and Soul Blade Super but done much smoother and second of all the control scheme fits in with A being block, B being punch and C being kick. It might be possible a bit of World Heroes is used due to in the ROM, the sprites are stored very similarly to nearly all the Mega Drive pirated fighting games as in that it is impossible to rip plus the port feels a bit like one but it has 6 button support, different controls and slowdown so it is not that engine.

Also I found BBD in the ROM of King of Fighters 98 but not in 99 even though 99 has a similar layout in the ROM as 98. While I have yet to play the games, it doesn't match either most of the pirated fighting games or V.R. Fighter vs. Taken 2 in terms of layout.

Something else to point out. The King of Fighters series, Chinese Fighter, Top Fighter and possibly Samurai Spirits 2 (as well as the SNES pirate of X-Men vs. Street Fighter) all use sprites from the CPS1, 2 and Neo Geo arcade machines, due to the chance of game developers having the arcade machine is silm, they probably used emulators or ports. The earliest ever MAME that included the CPS1 was in 25 Apr 1998 however Warriors of Fate (the sprites that Chinese Fighter used) was added on there in 12th February 1999 so either that game was made after that date or Callus was used to rip the sprites (since Callus was around in 1998). CPS2 was added into MAME at 10 Jan 2001 which meant that ports/video recordings were probably used for some of the sprites in King of Fighters 98,99 and Top Fighter or the dates of the games are lying and were made later. Neo Geo was added into MAME at 16 Aug 1998 but whether that or NeoRagex were used to rip the King of Fighters/Samurai Shodown characters sprites is unknown. Reason why I mentioned it is because 1998 seems to be the big year of emulation and some games used emulation to rip stuff (the backgrounds in Pocket Monster due to that the stolen backgrounds are compressed in their original games).

So in short:
Unknown Company A - Tekken 3 Special, Soul Blade Super, Samurai Spirits 2, Top Fighter 2000, Chinese Fighter? Also did Pocket Monster, Pocket Monster 2, Pokemon Stadium, Mulan and Hercules 2.
Unknown Company B [might have a link to Gamtec] - V.R. Fighter vs. Taken 2
BBD?: King of Fighters 98, King of Fighters 99?

codeman38

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 10:57:41 AM »
As another aside, VR Fighter vs Taken 2 appears to use the Wonder Boy III sound engine, which is also used in Squirrel King. The snare-drum patch is particularly distinctive. So there's another Gamtec connection.

And I definitely agree about all the others having some sort of common thread. There's some vague connection to Chuanpu in there as well, I think; both Chuanpu's games and this line of pirates use the sound driver from High Seas Havoc.

Oh, yeah, and that font is from the DOS program PC Paint, which has an entry on the Wiki.

Edit: I'm referring, of course, to the first font in each of those tilemaps. The second one, which as far as I can tell is unused in all these games, is stolen from Sonic the Hedgehog!
Oh, yeah, something else I forgot: shared music.

The opening theme to Top Fighter 2000 is taken directly from Chuanpu's Barver Battle Saga, composed by Yishen Liao.

The music programmer of Squirrel King, Hanmin Liao (no relation?), is also credited for "special thanks" in Never Ending Soft's "Shui Hu Feng Yun Zhuan", which shares music with KOF99.

So yeah. Chuanpu, Gamtec, and Unknown Pirate Company A most definitely shared staff. BBD probably, too.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 11:37:25 AM by codeman38 »

Awesome Panda

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 02:11:45 PM »
The music is a pretty obvious connection with a lot of these 16-bit pirates (provided you could be arsed to actually play through the game or at least watch some crazy person LP it). From what I remember:

- The Power Rangers theme was almost certainly used in Power Rangers: The Fighting Edition first and then re-used in KoF98.
- Two songs have several different remixes used in KoF99, Mortal Combat 5 (sic) and Pocket Monster
- The theme for Tekken 2 (SNES version of Tekken 3 Special) is from Mega Man X if I remember correctly, and it was reused in the SNES version of Pokémon Stadium
- The theme music from Dragon Ball Z: Final Bout is reused in Pocket Monster (or possibly the other way round)
- One of the songs from Aladdin II on the Mega Drive (port of Aladdin on the SNES) is reused in Mulan
- Super Donkey Kong 99 has a couple of (bad) remakes of music from Super Mario Bros. on the SNES, which was ported to the Mega Drive as Super Mario Bros. 2 and Sonic Jam 6 (I know these last two points aren't for fighting games, I just felt like pointing them out)

It's probably just me but I suspect they attempted to remake the original game's music for their earlier pirates and then with the later ones, they just reused the songs a lot.

BTW, I could be wrong but I think Top Fighter 2000 MK VIII reuses characters from some of the other pirates.

Azathoth

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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 03:46:19 PM »
At first I thought Top Fighter 2000 was a direct upgrade to KoF 98/99/00, but the more I play them I've began to think otherwise. While the engine itself is virtually identical (floaty, non-existent air game, wonky hit detection) there are also some weird things that aren't present in the older games. For instance, if you press and hold attack you'll be unable to move, which is a pretty weird glitch that wasn't present in the "older" engine. I've also noticed a few negative edge moves, where you can release rather than press the attack button at the end of a special command to execute it. While timewise it may had been a followup, the engine itself moved backwards in a crappier way on a few instances which makes me think a different group handled it. Plus the fact that DVS ported Pocket Monster, Soul Blade, KoF 2000, and more from MD to SNES, yet never touched Top Fighter makes me think it's more "distanced" from the KoF engine than I first thought.

I also think the weird blocking mechanic is a holdover from the engine found in the three other weapon fighters. SSII blocking is pure garbage. 98/99 seemed to at least make it playable.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 03:59:09 PM by Azathoth »

Awesome Panda

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 04:10:52 PM »
Azathoth
Mar 11 2011, 03:46:19 PM
Plus the fact that DVS ported Pocket Monster, Soul Blade, KoF 2000, and more from MD to SNES, yet never touched Top Fighter makes me think it's more "distanced" from the KoF engine than I first thought.

I also think the weird blocking mechanic is a holdover from the engine found in the three other weapon fighters. SSII blocking is pure garbage. 98/99 seemed to at least make it playable.

[/quote]Not sure about that. I'm guessing DVS are either Chuanpu under a different name, got the license to port their games over or are the publishers of the SNES version.

BTW, it might be worth pointing out that with Soul Blade, the Mega Drive version is 4Mb while the SNES version is only 3Mb, which explains the smaller roster of characters. I suspect that's also the case with the Tekken and Pokémon Stadium pirates. Not sure why they'd need to reduce the size though.

codeman38

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 12:38:27 AM »
Just realized another connection: Chinese Fighter shares some tunes with its namesake RPG, Conquering The World III (Tenchi o Kurau 3), a pirate original published by SKOB. Which was also soundtracked by Hanmin Liao. Seriously, that guy seems to have worked for half the Taiwanese unlicensed devs out there.

Edit: And it's definitely Final Bout's music that's reused in Pokemon, not vice versa-- the tune is pretty much a direct copy of a tune from a Dragonball game for SNES.

Also, Mulan shares some tunes with Barver Battle Saga and others with Shui Hu Feng Yun Zhuan. Perhaps the two Liaos really are related?

Edit #2: When I have some spare time, I really need to make some sort of chart of music shared between various pirate games. Would be much easier if there were VGM rips of all of them, though...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 12:48:35 AM by codeman38 »

Azathoth

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 05:51:36 PM »
Played some more of these over the weekend.

KoF '99 does have the "hold B bug" where you can't move if you keep punch pressed in. I was under the impression this was only present in Top Fighter (since it's not in '98) so apparently Top Fighter is the using the same exact engine as '98/'99, which might be a tweaked engine of the previous fighters. Anything from '98 on does not use the A button for anything (block or otherwise) and blocking is done by simply pressing back.

Sprite comparisons between the three show that all use the same exact sprites and animations ripped from the same series of games. The only difference I see offhand is that Top Fighter pulled sprites from KoF '94 for Kyo, Jordan, and Ali while '99 got it's fucked up Iori sprite from only God knows where. I can't believe they even included it, it looks so bad.

OT but KoF 2000 on SNES pulls all it's backgrounds and music from existing SNES games, including Final Fight 2 and Fatal Fury.

Samurai Spirits II has a title screen dated '97, as does Soul Blade/Edge, but being that one of the characters from Soul Blade was used in SSII it makes sense that Soul Blade was made prior to SSII, then Samurai Spirits VS Soul Edge came last.

I was always under the impression that the engine used in Soul Blade was just a modified version of the one used in either Tekken 3 Special or VFvT2 (and SSII further modifying it). Both have an almost useless air game and both feature a very strange exaggerated walking movement that makes gameplay a chore.

Azathoth

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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 02:42:49 AM »
Please excuse the long post, for everyone who tl;dr I think that VR Fighter VS Taken 2 was the first unlicensed fighter developed, and every fighter after that beginning with Tekken 2/3 Special was based on the same engine or code to an extent even if handled by different development groups.

V.R Fighter VS Taken 2
From what I can gather this was developed first and based on its own unique engine. The sprites and music are not reused, options screens are different, and the fighting system (however crappy) is somewhat playable. Unless my memory is failing I know it was the first game dumped. If for some reason it was developed after Tekken 3 Special, I have no idea why they would still use the “2” in the name as a selling point.

Tekken 2 (SNES) / Tekken 3 Special (MD)
I’m guessing the SNES version was developed first being that it uses the 2 name rather than 3, along with having less characters and sampled sounds.  

Blocking bugs on MD only: Has a strange blocking system where you have to press both A and back to block, simply pressing back will avoid the hitstun but you’ll still take the regular amount of damage.

Button bugs on MD only: After holding the B button down, you will only be able to duck or jump. When you jump you do a jumping punch animation.


Soul Blade (SNES) / Soul Blade Special (MD)
I’m assuming the Mega Drive version was developed last, hence the “Special” moniker. MD version also has more characters, more speech, a much larger ROM size, but it loses the line sway button the SNES version has.

Blocking bugs on MD only: Same fucked up blocking as Tekken 3.

Button bugs on MD only: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left or right. When you jump you do a jumping punch animation.

Samurai Spirits II
Has 1998 on the title screen and has that one guy from Soul Blade as a playable character, so obviously made after Soul Blade Special. Even though he’s from a different game he plays exactly the same as he does previously. SSII has the distinction of being a game that aesthetically tries to recreate the arcade version, both in visuals and sounds.

Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you will only be able to duck or jump. When you jump you do a jumping punch animation.

Same fucked up blocking game as the previous two games.


The King of Fighters ’98 aka The King of Fighters 2000
Blocking is done either by pressing A or holding back.

Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left, right or jump. Also introduces a weird special move bug: if you hold down the button used for the special move, and keep the button held while doing the D-pad motion for the special, it will do the special move anyways. This doesn’t seem to work for all moves for all characters, but several of them. For instance, Robert’s lightning legs move is to rapidly press C. If you just hold C, then press back x2 he’ll do it.


Dragon Ball Z: Final Bout
Dated ’99 on the title screen.

Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left, right or jump.


The King of Fighters ‘99
Basically the same game as ’98, minus Cammy but adding Vega (Dictator), Cyclops, and Iori, along with some new tunes and backgrounds.

Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left, right or jump. Same weird special move bugs as in KoF ’98.


Top Fighter 2000 MKVIII aka Top Fighter 2005
Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left or right. This bug effectively breaks the game because it has a new quirk, not only will this do it if you HOLD B, but if you PRESS B AND FORWARD OR BACK. In other words, you must fully release the D-pad when you want to punch, because if you are walking forward and press punch your character will come to a complete dead stop and not do ANYTHING.

You can also to the easy special move performance like KoF ‘98/’99 by holding in the button and doing the D-pad motion.

Chinese Fighter III / Lord of the Rings
Button bugs: After holding the B button down, you cannot move left or right.

You can also to the easy special move performance like Top Fighter by holding in the button and doing the D-pad motion.

I’d say when Power Rangers: The Fighting Edition and Samurai Shodown VS Soul Blade are played/dumped they’ll have this same button bug on them also.

I’m going to go out on a limb and also say the existing other dumped SNES fighters are also tied to the MD series, if they don’t have the same developers they were at least stealing stuff from each other. The all the Cyclops sprites and animations from KoF ’99 & Top Fighter for MD are originally taken from X-Men VS Street Fighter for SNES, if you notice that game only has a single punch/kick button and not a weak/strong attack system. Cyclops is the only character in KoF ’99 without a weak/strong punch and kick because he’s using that same limited animation set that was found in X-Men VS Street Fighter. Both platforms also use a similar HUD for the lifebars and character names. The crappy game engine with the herky jerky animation is probably the same for all 5(?) SNES games but it’s really to taxing for me to play even just to find out.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:45:50 AM by Azathoth »

Barver

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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 02:59:27 AM »
I would assume the Genesis versions of anything on SNES are the first released, going by how everything on SNES that's also on Genesis seems to use the same graphics as the Genesis one, as though they were made with the Genesis' color limitations in mind.

PlayerSecelt

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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2011, 08:51:49 AM »
I have some other little details to say:
Virtua Fighter vs. Taken 2, Soul Blade Super and maybe a few other fighting games have the same sound engine, also used in Squirrel King and some other pirate games.
The most of the others use the Mortal Combat 5: Sub Zero sound engine.
Also, Shui Hu Feng Zhuan uses some songs from Mulan, MK5 (pardon, MC5 =P) and maybe a few other games, but I know, it's not a fighting game but a Golden Axe clone with blood, but I just said that for some info.
(Oh, and sorry for some stuff people already said, I wasn't checking the posts above.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:53:31 AM by PlayerSecelt »

Awesome Panda

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2011, 09:33:35 AM »
PlayerSecelt
Jul 3 2011, 08:51:49 AM
Virtua Fighter vs. Taken 2, Soul Blade Super and maybe a few other fighting games have the same sound engine, also used in Squirrel King and some other pirate games.[/quote]I could be wrong, but isn't that the GEMS sound engine?

codeman38

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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2011, 10:54:49 AM »
Cheetahmen
Jul 3 2011, 09:33:35 AM
PlayerSecelt
Jul 3 2011, 08:51:49 AM
Virtua Fighter vs. Taken 2, Soul Blade Super and maybe a few other fighting games have the same sound engine, also used in Squirrel King and some other pirate games.[/quote]I could be wrong, but isn't that the GEMS sound engine?[/quote]Nope. It's SMPS, particularly the variant used in Wonder Boy 3.

Edit: In addition, though it's not a fighting game, the Rockman X3 bootleg also appears to use SMPS. The percussion, in particular, is a dead giveaway.

Edit #2: And I thought I'd brought up this particular sound driver connection in the past (aside from the actual name of the sound driver)-- indeed, it was in this very thread. :lol:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 11:02:56 AM by codeman38 »

Awesome Panda

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A theory of fighting games
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 12:18:14 PM »
codeman38
Jul 3 2011, 10:54:49 AM
Edit: In addition, though it's not a fighting game, the Rockman X3 bootleg also appears to use SMPS. The percussion, in particular, is a dead giveaway.[/quote]In that case, why does the soundtrack to that game sound considerably worse than in the fighters? :huh:

codeman38

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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2011, 01:29:29 PM »
Cheetahmen
Jul 3 2011, 12:18:14 PM
In that case, why does the soundtrack to that game sound considerably worse than in the fighters? :huh:[/quote]No idea. Different programmer, maybe? I really wish these games actually had release dates so I knew whether the fighters, the Gamtec games, or Rockman X3 came first.

And the fighters and Rockman all sound noticeably different in style from the Gamtec games that used the same sound driver, too, for that matter.
Oh, also, Soul Blade Super definitely uses the High Seas Havoc sound driver, not SMPS. It even uses some of the same tunes as Top Fighter 2000. However, VF vs. Taken 2 does use SMPS.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 01:36:37 PM by codeman38 »

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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 01:41:48 PM »
codeman38
Jul 3 2011, 01:29:29 PM
Cheetahmen
Jul 3 2011, 12:18:14 PM
In that case, why does the soundtrack to that game sound considerably worse than in the fighters? :huh:[/quote]No idea. Different programmer, maybe? I really wish these games actually had release dates so I knew whether the fighters, the Gamtec games, or Rockman X3 came first.[/quote]I'm guessing the Gamtec games were first (from about 1993, if I recall) and based on the chronology of the games that the other pirates were based off, I'd say Rockman X3 came first out of that lot. (The Saturn version of RX3 came out in April 1996 and from what I remember, none of the fighting games came out until December that year)